Amen to that.

God bless the astronauts, Kelly, and his wife, and God bless Pope Benedict as well.

Pope Benedict always wanted to be an astronaut!

Danny-1914275 Why don't you go fondle YOURSELF! It is about all you will ever get.

Wow. Sorry I said anything.

Here's something to think about: Anti-Catholicism is the last politically-correct prejudice.

The funny thing is that the current pope still harbors Bernard Law and has in the past helped to shelter and protect pedophiles. I was literally referencing something he's actually done.

In reality atheists are one of the few remaining groups that it is ok to discriminate against. More recent polls essentially show that we are the least trusted group in America even though we comprise about 15-20% of the population.

Probably because a lot of them act like @!$%#s.

Just read throughout these comments, or others throughout MSNBC.

Here's something to think about: Anti-Catholicism is the last politically-correct prejudice.

Catholics get a lot of flack, but there are groups that get more. Jews, Muslims, Latinos, Mexicans, immigrants, and blacks to name a few, not necessarily in that order.

On Newsvine, Latinos, Mexicans, and immigrants get the worst treatment. Muslims are right behind, but a few more people are willing to defend them. I suspect bigots feel they are more likely to be challenged if they malign African Americans overtly than if they pick on those other groups, so they are more careful to use coded messages, like birtherism.

The sad thing is that there is a huge and growing increase in the amount of intolerance and prejudice in the United States in the past decade.

Maybe the Pope will pray for us. I hope so.

very well stated, pippo!

Taking a lot of it on faith on earth is no different than doing it in space...

Both uncalled for. =D

People cling to Faith because it does require thinking. People talk for "god" because, it can't speak for itself, because it does not exist.

Since, people know what is in the mind of "god" why don't they act accordingly.

People are always evoking "god" as a scare tactic the same way they use Satan, it is only for fear mongering.

Religion is anti Science because it would put the Churches out of BUSINESS.

People are always evoking "god" as a scare tactic ..., it is only for fear mongering.

Most people of faith gain strength from reflecting on God. It makes them better people, more aware of others, and happier human beings.

I think it's mainly people who lack faith that think God is just some bogeyman used to scare children into behaving their parents. That may describe some people's faith, but that does not seem to be a very mature faith.

What was it that Thomas Jefferson said "Priests fear the advance of science like witches do the coming of the dawn" or something close to that?

Long ago religion told us that rainbows were a sign from god - now we know that it is a scientific phenominum called prismatic refraction. Nothing has held science back more than religion, from the dark ages to today's stem cell research.

Go ahead -- turn me into a newt (I'll get better--)

Danny-1914275 post 5.1 walks-upright post 5.2

Nothing has held science back more than religion, from the dark ages to today's stem cell research.

Nothing could be further from the Truth. The Catholic Church promoted science more than any other human institution. The Catholic Church founded the scientific method and the University system of higher education. Read about Father Stanley Jaki: Benedictine priest, physicist and theologian and Georges-Henri Lemaitre a Belgium Priest who developed the Big Bang Theory.

Nothing could be further from the Truth. The Catholic Church promoted science more than any other human institution.

LMAO...right, that's why Galileo was excommunicated, put on trial by the inquisition (what a great bunch there huh?), threatened with death and was forced to renounce his findings...even though he was RIGHT. And then to add insult to injury, he was put under house arrest for the remainder of his life. Yeah, Catholic Church sure promoted science though....hahahaha! Oh but let's give them some credit, they "apologized" to him, oh, "only" 300+ years after he died...yeah, I'm sure he can enjoy that apology, oh wait, he can't: HE'S DEAD! And it wasn't even a sincere apology either...they did it on HALLOWEEN of all days! The "pagan" and "boogy man" holiday......puh-lease, they should have apologized on Christmas or Easter if they wanted to show some sincerity, but they're too proud to do that.

Read teh sotry of Andreas Vesalius -- a true pioneer in his day (the 1500's) in anatomical research. His brilliant works reversed so many incorrect interpretations we had about the human body and how it functioned. BUT, of course, so much of what he discovered flew in the face of Catholic Dogma, so the church sought to destroy his life (which it did) and destroy his work (which it did for many years).

Vesalius is but one of MANY educated persons throughout history who were literally destroyed by the Catholic Cult and its desire for power and domination, and its hatred for learning and science.

The Catholic Cult is foul, evil and disgusting. And these attributes only GROW with time.

Let's be fair. ALL religion is foul, evil & disgusting.

OK, we can agree on that. That is fair!

Let's be fair...Religion gave us Mother Theresa and St. Francis of
Assisi. The Catholic Church has fed more people in poverty than any other institution. Its hospitals have healed more people in poverty than any other system. It has given more hope to people in despair than any other institution.

Let be real. Mother Theresa could have given the people with "leprosy" good old Penicillin if she really cared about them.

After all, Penicillin does cure Leprosy.

Oh, then she could not have become a "saint". It was a PR stunt and it is working on some people.

The catholic church only had a 2000 year headstart, and I would have to say they have done more harm than good.

Nothing has held science back more than religion, from the dark ages to today's stem cell research.

Um, you do realize that it is common historical fact that the Catholic Church is the entity responsible for ending the Dark Ages and promoting and promulgating the concept of Western thought, right?

Or in your zeal to look like a complete buffoon, did you fail to read any sort of history book? Or are you just content with being someone's talking puppet regurgitating bigotry?

Religion is the exact OPPOSITE of science and reason. How the HELL can they "work together"?

We need to RID the world of superstition and magic thinking, not enable it.

The Catholic Church has fed more people in poverty than any other institution

Yeah, well, problem is --- while the church stuffed food in kids' mouths, it also couldn't stop stuffing things into the other end of their digestive tract.

Or did you miss that part?

The Pedophile Catholic Cult has some good deeds to brag about, but the price tag is too high. One butt-raped kid is too many ---- but tens of thousands of raped, abused and molested children? Sorry, your cult deserves to be wiped from the face of the planet. Period.

As for you, Observer_1, it appears that the only history books you've ever read are the ones specially authored for BuyBull-Home-School classes. And we know what those read like!

Here is an awesome commercial showing science and religion working together. I'm going to order my PrayerMAX 5000 right away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVUfLJVSdjg

Danny, there's nothing I can say to a troll like you.

I'm just going to enjoy watching your ignorant ass get banned. And then have a glass of wine to celebrate.

People don't get banned for speaking factually and honestly. Sorry, but another typical attempt by someone in the Religious Reich to silence an opposing voice is not likely to work... In fact, the language you use is more "likely" to get banned -- but I don't ever attempt to ban/censor people, I leave things like that up to scared little low-lifes... Cheers!

Whatever you say, puppet.

There isn't a genuine, independent brain cell in your entire little noggin.

I wonder how rude and mouthy you'd be if you didn't have the internet to hide behind...

They long for the days where they could torture and kill heretics. You can see it in his posts. He'd love nothing better than to stick you in some medieval torture device for disagreeing with his superstition.

He's also unable to counter your facts with any sort of reason or logic.

Odd, I was just curious if he manages to hold down a job without getting fired for being an @!$%#.

Strange how your mind went straight to violence... Your true colors, perhaps?

And frankly, I'm the only one in this conversation that has used actual fact and logic.

Fail harder next time.

Edit: Yep, after reading your two's post history, I have no doubt you're the same person. How lame is that? haha

Or - and stay with me here - we're two people sick to death of superstition ruining this planet.

Just a thought.

Nah, you both use the same lingo and, after reading your posts, are both House-wannabe @!$%#s who start fights when none were there before, as well as acting like complete jerkoffs to regular people.

You have to be the same person.

I used to be an atheist back when it meant something, now all the kiddies trying to be cool have ruined it. Just like Facebook, back when only college people could get on, damnit. School's out for the summer, I guess I should get used to attention-starving Barry/Danny.

Just for the record, if you are two different people, I'd recommend distancing yourself from Danny. He and his ilk will be the death of atheism because, honestly, who would want to associate with a terd like that? (Rhetorical question.)

Think about it. If you were an objective reader looking at all of these posts in this thread, which side of the coin really looks all that appealing... Thanks for losing, Barry/Danny.

LMFAO. There can only be one person on the entire planet who disagrees with this whack-job. Too funny...

By the way, it's spelled TURD. heh heh... even Eric Cartman knows that, dummy!

I'll leave it to you to be the expert on fecal matter...

@Observer1, the church did not "end the Dark Age". What tripe. Where do you kids read this? If this is taught to you at church I seriously believe that "teacher" should be dismissed from his position. The Dark Age, which is very much a disputed term by many historians, evolved into the Middle Age due to many factors. Political cohesion, trade and population growth being part of it. The Church was involved as a player but hardly the driving factor behind it.

I'll grant you that clerical orders were instrumental in preserving written knowledge and formed the nuclues of the young medieval world's learning. However, any learning that went against church dogma attracted severe censorship and other consequences. The reason the church was able to nurture such learning was because they were given large amounts of wealth by secular lords. These secular lords/kings were very much in a symbiotic relationship with the church where they gave money and land in exchange for validation of their claims of being appointed by God to rule the peasantry.

As towns gained more importance and political power, controlled by commoners not beholden to the Church, scientific enquiry spread faster and faster. It is because the non-gentry, richer townsmen were able to support a % of their number to engage in non-essential life supporting activities that this happens - whereas previously only church with the bribes received from the ruling elite were able to spare the manpower.

the church did not "end the Dark Age". What tripe. Where do you kids read this? If this is taught to you at church I seriously believe that "teacher" should be dismissed from his position. The Dark Age, which is very much a disputed term by many historians, evolved into the Middle Age due to many factors. Political cohesion, trade and population growth being part of it. The Church was involved as a player but hardly the driving factor behind it.

I'm curious as to where you received your education...

The Dark Ages, as coined by Petrarch, or Early Middle Ages, was a time when the western Roman empire finally collapsed, leaving European "barbarian" lords as the remaining power in central/western Europe, filling the void left by the demise of the Romans.

However, the RCC, utilizing the roads left by the Roman empire, embarked on missionary work to these territories. The rulers who sought to end years of warfare amongst its internal and external factors, converted to Catholicism to bring unity amongst itself and its neighbors (mainly to secure power). (Refer to Clovis I.)

This is also the point in history with the rise of monasticism, which was not a Catholic concept but one that originated from the east.

This was the rise of the Holy Roman Empire, starting with Otto I in 962 AD. Coincidentally(?) the Early Middle Ages ended at approximately 1000 AD and entered into the period known as the High Middle Ages.

Please refer to the historians-of-science Edward Grant and David Lindberg for further reading. They discuss such topics like that of scientific inquiry during this time period, including such things as Mendel's theories of heredity. (A Catholic monk, if I remember right.)

(I'm very concerned about what they're teaching people in college these days after reading Staal's post. I hope bigotry and discrimination are not it, as it appears to have clouded Staal's quest for objective knowledge.)

Right... I can also go copy-pasted paragraphs about the period. I can see you are trying to correct me, but none of what I said contradicts your copy-pasta.

Kudos to posting lots of facts that really add nothing to your contention that "the Church" led us out of the Dark Ages. I said they were a player, I mentioned monasticism... so not sure what your point is.

However, the fact that you think it is possible to attribute the social change during a period of several hundred years on one factor, the church, just shows how typically narrow-minded you church lot are. You see the little details that fit your version of the story but miss the big picture.

lol I'm sure you also think that iron is not the principle instrument that ended the Bronze Age. Let me guess, a meteor ended it along with the Early Middle Age. lawl

Amazing. Actually, all of my post came from one of my bachelors degrees, received at a secular university.

What school can I get a degree at that allows me to be an expert on revision? Or is your whole point that you can contribute nothing other than saying "Nuh uh" because you just simply cannot believe it? Does it not gel with your atheist manifesto? You offer zero counter-argument and even partly agreed with me. What sort of ridiculous position is that?

Scratch that, I doubt you have an education at all. I'll stand by mine, though, and chuckle at you and your pitiful lot.

but none of what I said contradicts your copy-pasta.

I know it doesn't. Thanks for playing.

Iron, bronze age, meteor? You are rambling now. All those facts you posted did nothing to support your view that the church ended the Dark Age. Your reference to a "meteor" is a jibe at what exactly? The extinction of dinosaurs, their existence? Are you seriously trying to argue your original point by bringing evolution into this?

As for your talk about having a degree... oh boy! You know what I find interesting, holding a degree in a professional field myself, I do not ever hear people that actually have degrees citing them as a blanket validation of an argument. If they did they would be laughed at. Either you have some random and dare I say pointless degree in "the arts" or you don't have one at all as people with lower tier education tend to "one up" people like that.

As for your other quotes... how does Petrarch, the HRE, Otto I, dates and the fact that monasticism comes from the east have anything to do with your original statement or my original criticism of it? Simply put, nothing. You are trying to sound clever by listing general facts of the period.

You can quote all the little isolated paragraphs "about missionaries travelling old Roman roads" you want but while it paints a lovely picture it does not validate your narrow minded contention that "the church ended the Dark Age". The Dark Ages are called that due to a perceived lack of cultural and economical activity, decrease in population etc. Attributing the change in such wide ranging factors solely to the church has no basis.

Why exactly am I having to do all the work for you?

I got an idea, you disagree, you prove me wrong. Why did the EMA end? What brought that about?

I need a chuckle.

And by the way, recent archaeological studies are showing that there was possibly a significant meteor impact in between the Bronze Age and the Iron Age, and current studies are being worked on to determine its affect on the transition between the two ages.

Stay current, please, "free-thinker". lol

(Also, I gave my credentials in the matter because on the internet, you never know. In real life, someone's credentials in a subject matter are fairly obvious, like a doctor. That's why I doubt your friends never have to tell you you're wrong all the time because they're smarter than you.)

You made unsupported statements about the church's role in ending the Dark Ages, not me. The Dark Ages ended due to increase in political cohesion, trade, population growth etc. Many factors were involved, some more interrelated that others. The Chuch was one of the players but not the primary force as without the rest nothing would've happened.

Meteors still has nothing to do with your original statement and neither does your assumption as to my opion about a discussion that has absolutely zero relevance to the topic at hand. Free thinker... lol, you just love your labels don't you? I am not surprised as that is what the church does best, label and castigate.

What I find most ironic is the similarities between people such as you and the vast majority of non-thinking, automatic liberals. Their two primary tactics when called up on the nonsense they bandy about as fact are (1) muddy the water with unrelated topics (2) attack the questioner of the "accepted truth" instead of providing factual backup or refuting his facts.

It is the most ridiculous notion to try and establish your credentials like you did on the internet. The fact that you think such a claim validates your argument in any way, especially since it can't be proved, is evidence of how you misunderstand the type of information a rational, "free thinking" (lol again) human being requires to form an opinion.

However, since I know that you take what is spoonfed to you by your church at face value I can see how you might have that same expectation of me to just have faith and take what you say as truth. Any independent investigation you might have done has obviously been coloured by your predisposition to prove the church's worth in history. That is the only way that such a one sided and narrowly focused opinion can be developed.

My claims were not unsupported, you just chose to dismiss the support without any reason why.

You still lack giving any support to your claims.

due to increase in political cohesion

As I mentioned with Catholic conversion and gave an example of Clovis I.

trade

As a result of political cohesion.

population growth

As a result of political cohesion and a decline of war during this period.

Times of peace greatly increase population due to people being able to focus on luxuries (not in the commodity sense but rather things people don't really get to do when they're at war), innovation, invention (inventions not related to war-time), etc.

Once again, you prove nothing except my point and you offer no references or citations. I gave you two accredited and award-winning (secular) authors of history and you never made mention of their work.

Our discussion is done - you're just a miserable troll who has nothing better to do than to regurgitate whatever your newsletter told you. You're no better than the more hardcore Catholics I argue with (ie, creationists, evolution deniers, etc).

@Observer1, the church did not "end the Dark Age". What tripe. Where do you kids read this?

Staal. Your "pal" here is a victim of BuyBull-home-schooling, tho he no longer admits it now. You should see the textbooks for Bhs... they completely and inaccurately rewrite history in order to "christainize" the past. If you ever picked up and read one of the Bhs textbooks, you'd literally vomit. In any event, that is what you are contending with...

@Danny, that is why I stopped replying to him because they are dishonest in their arguments and it is too big a chore to untangle each deliberate misstatement they make. He is basically saying that if the Church did not exist the Dark Ages would not have ended, which is just ridiculous. It would've ended eventually as society regained its cohesion. After all, the "church" was not in Japan but they progressed.

Personally, I think the worst tenet of the Geneva Convention is the one about assassinating politicians. Frankly, I'd rather we bury a dozen US Presidents if it meant that Seal Team 6 et al could take care of dictators and tyrants around the world. It seems so much more reasonable to offer up the politicians first, rather than the patriotic sons and daughters of nations. Rather than water the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots, democracy would be better served if we were to water it with the blood of tyrants. Think about it, if every would be dictator that rose to power was stopped by hot lead to the face at the first sign of despotism, the world would be a much better place. Even if that meant we'd occasionally lose a president or congressman, I still say the tradeoff is well worth the cost.

Jon and Danny, it sounds like you two also are being negative and closed minded. So angry are you, it does not seem that tolerance and understanding for another is one of your strong suits.

"Old Time 'Merican"...with that lame christian apologist statment it's obvious why you chose that name...Get with it slick, it's the 21st century now...

ALL religions are anti-science, they have to be - It takes butts from the seats on Sundays - not to mention the tithes - and makes people think independently which subverts their "divine-given powers" to rule your thoughts.

According to ALL religions thru the ages, Science is the devil's trick and as such is their sworn enemy.

This backwards looking pope's grandstanding "blessing" is a stunt to throw you off the scent of what he's really doing..."blessing" the end of the US Space Program thinking that's giving him and his kind their edge back...

If it had have been up to the church. The Astronauts would not be in Space as we write today.

There would not have been a reason for a "blessing". Just the though of space exploration would have been a reason for a "killing" instead.

Remember, the Church would have any Progressive declared a heretic and killed.

Lol if it were up to the church we would not be writing here at all, there would be no internet or computers. We would be lucky to even have modern toilets, I am sure they offend god somehow.

Danny and John,

You should listen to "old time american" and be more "open minded" by STFU and just 'ceptin jeebus as yer saver and quit questioning things which make no sense. Questioning things is un-Maaaaaarkin' and not what the foundin' fellers would have wanted.

By looking at the comments to my posting it looks like some did not even listen to the pope's talk with the astronauts or hear the astronauts responses. As for me being a devote christian, I disagree with the catholic church more than I agree with them. But, I do agree with the golden rule of "Treat someone else as you would want to be treated". Respect their option as you would have them respect yours. They may not be correct all of the time, but neither are you or I.

Yeah, the Pedophile Catholic Cult should have thought about the Golden Rule before raping and abusing tens of thousands of children over decades and decades. But we're way past that now...

ota -- you're upset because i'm not tolerant of a Pedophile Child-Raping Cult? Really? That's what you consider TOLERANCE?

You need medication, it would seem.

Danny, the abuse of children or any person has always been condemn by then Catholic Church to be an immoral, evil act whoever commits it--including any member of the Catholic Church. Please don't forget that fact. The Catholic Church's main goal is to get as many souls as possible to spend Eternity in Heaven and to save them from spending Eternity in Hell. Eternity is a long time. Choose wisely--and always remember no sin or sins is greater than God's Mercy. You will always be welcome to join the Catholic Church.

More cultist nonsense and blah-blah. And lies to support the Pedophile Catholic Cult. Meaningless.

Danny-1914275 post 7.11

More cultist nonsense and blah-blah. And lies to support the Pedophile Catholic Cult.

What specific statements are nonsense and what specific statements are lies and please provide your reasons that support why such statements are either lies or nonsense.

1. The Catholic Church has ALWAYS hidden and protected its child-raping pedophile priests, and simply moved them around to other parishes for fresh meat. They hadn't "condemned" this behavior for decades -- they never even wanted to admit it happened. Only recently has the Poop "apologized" for the behavior, and his apologies are empty -- he offers no remuneration to the victims at all. The only way they get any is to take the Roman Pedophile Catholic Cult to court, where the cult further victimizes them before they can get anything.

2. The Catholic Cult's MAIN GOAL has always been MONEY and POWER. And to instill fear in its followers in order to increase its MONEY and POWER. Trying to suggest anything else is complete BS.

The rest of your cultist babbling is uninteresting.

Exactly, egreen! Well said.

Nothing could be further from the Truth. The Catholic Church promoted science more than any other human institution. The Catholic Church founded the scientific method and the University system of higher education. Read about Father Stanley Jaki: Benedictine priest, physicist and theologian and Georges-Henri Lemaitre a Belgium Priest who developed the Big Bang Theory.

repeating your nonsense doesn't make it true, it onily reminds us of the tens of thousands of children repeatedly raped, molested and abused by your foul cult, the Ratlines that the Catholic Cult created and maintained after the nazi surrender of WWII to allow many Nazi war criminals to escape capture and live their lives in peaceful exile...and so many other atrocities to mankind.

Sorry, but the facts of history dont quite gel with the crap you are spewing...

Don't waste your time Danny. Anyone foolish & ignorant enough to believe the superstitious BS of a so called holy book is impervious to fact, reason & logic.

Danny-1914275 post 8.3

repeating your nonsense doesn't make it true

You provide the facts of history you are talking about and I will address them.

I see people love to point out 19th and 20th century theologians that did certain scientific work. The only reason they were in a position that allowed them to do that work was because society forced the Church to stop its crazy nonsense. The Church has only ever evolved and became more tolerant because society told it to. The Chuch is always playing catch up. In the West Religion is a by product of society, society is not a product of religion. When society is a product of religion you have a shambles like the middle east.

Staal-20032263 post 8.6

I see people love to point out 19th and 20th century theologians that did certain scientific work.

We can go back a lot further than that....

Roger Bacon, the 13th-century Franciscan who stressed the concept of "laws of nature" and contributed to the development of mechanics, geography, and especially optics.

Robert Grosseteste (c. 1175-1253)

The Suffolk-born Englishman Robert Grosseteste of Lincoln grew up in a poor family but became arguably the most learned figure in England because of his unquenchable desire for knowledge, a deep faith, and personal humility. He was educated in theology and began teaching at Oxford, where he enjoyed an association with the recently arrived Franciscans and where he perhaps served as chancellor. Elected bishop of Lincoln in 1235, he was deeply concerned with reforming the Church in England. He renounced corrupt or unsuitable abbots, reduced ecclesiastical benefices, and authored a series of statutes to provide specific guidelines for the behavior of the clergy and the administration of dioceses.

His achievements as a Church leader, however, were eclipsed by his reputation as one of the most learned men of his age. He was a master of mathematics, optics, and science, foreshadowing the experimental methods of his pupil Roger Bacon. Historians of science claim that Robert was the founder of the scientific movement at Oxford University and so sparked a pursuit of excellence that has continued to today. Among a few of his achievements was a commentary on the Physics of Aristotle, a critique of the Julian calendar that anticipated the reform of the calendar under Pope Gregory XIII 300 years later, and treatises on optics, music, and mathematics. Such was his reputation for genius and knowledge of the natural world that he was also reputed in some unlearned circles to be a wizard and sorcerer.

Ignazio Danti (1536-1586)

One of the inheritors of the tradition of learning encouraged by Grosseteste was a relatively unknown Italian bishop, Ignazio Danti. The son of an artisan, he was born in Perugia and studied perhaps at the university there before joining the Dominicans in 1555. He went on to earn the patronage of the leading figures of his era, including Cosimo de'Medici in Florence and Popes St. Pius V and Gregory XIII. The latter pope named him bishop of Alatri, where he displayed great zeal for advancing the reform of the Church.

Much like Grosseteste, Danti enjoyed a wide-ranging set of interests, including astronomy, mathematics, optics, architecture, civil engineering, hydraulics, and cartography. He was especially renowned for his skills as an astronomer. In 1574, he made a set of important observations that found the equinox to be 11 days earlier than the calendar. He consequently played a role in the reform of the Julian Calendar under Gregory XIII. But Danti left his real mark as a cartographer. Cosimo de'Medici commissioned him to prepare maps and a large terrestrial globe for his own collection. He had commissions from Pius V to map Perugia and from Gregory XIII to map the Papal States. His maps can still be seen today in massive murals in the Palazzo Vecchio in Florence and on the walls of La Galleria delle Carte Geografiche of the Belvedere Palace in the Vatican. Finally, Danti perfected the rado latino, a surveying instrument, and he crafted designs for a canal across Italy that would link the Adriatic and Mediterranean through Florence.

Marin Mersenne (1588-1648)

The French priest Marin Mersenne began his long career at the recently established Jesuit School in La Flèche-the only school he could find that allowed poor students to attend. Among his fellow students was the eight-year-old René Descartes, who would become a friend. Mersenne entered the Order of the Minims in 1611 and was ordained a priest the next year. After theological studies, he became known in philosophical and theological circles for his fiery works against atheism and deism. History remembers him most, however, for his work in mathematics, especially the so-called Mersenne primes and his effort to find a formula that would represent all prime numbers.

In La vérité des sciences (Truth of the Sciences) , he argued for the value of human reason. He corresponded with the foremost figures of his age, including Pierre Gassendi, René Descartes, Pierre de Fermat, Thomas Hobbes, and Blaise Pascal. He organized colloquia of scientists from around Europe to read their papers and exchange ideas. The gatherings became known as the Académie Parisiensis but were also nicknamed the Académie Mersenne, and the number of scientists whose careers were given direction by the colloquia is impossible to underestimate. In keeping with his commitment to science, he left instructions that his body be used for research.

Jean-Felix Picard (1620-1682)

A contemporary of Mersenne, the French Jesuit Jean-Felix Picard earned the title of founder of modern astronomy in France even as he labored as a priest. Born in La Flèche, where he studied at the Jesuit Collège Royal Henry-Le-Grand, he was fascinated from an early age with the heavens, and he gave his intellectual life to the cause of astronomy. Picard introduced new methods for watching the stars and improved and developed new scientific instruments.

Picard was the first person in the Enlightenment to provide an accurate measure of the size of the Earth through a survey conducted 1669-1670. His calculation of a terrestrial radius of 6328.9 km is off by only 0.44 percent, and his continued progress in instruments proved essential in the drafting of Isaac Newton's theory of universal gravitation. Picard also worked and corresponded with a vast number of scientists of the time, including Isaac Newton, Christian Huygens, and a great rival, Giovanni Cassini.

Deeply respected by his contemporaries but overshadowed by Galileo, Newton, and Cassini, Picard was a founding member of the French Academy in 1666. He was honored in 1935 by having a moon crater named after him. (A less-elevated honor was bestowed in 1987, when his name was used for the character Captain Jean-Luc Picard on the television show Star Trek: The Next Generation.)

Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)

Far better known than Picard, of course, is the Augustinian abbot Gregor Mendel, the father of modern genetics. Born in Austria to a peasant farmer family, he entered the Augustinian Order in 1843 and was ordained a priest four years later. Mendel was largely unheralded during his life and accomplished his phenomenal work in considerable obscurity while teaching natural science in a boy's high school in Austria. Only in his last years, in fact, was he named an abbot.

Mendel earned his place in science by working with simple pea pod plants. He loved to take walks around the monastery and noticed that some plants were radically different in their traits and growth patterns. As any high school student today can attest, Mendel spent years examining seven characteristics of the pea pod plants and determined the basic laws that govern the passage of traits within a species. Especially crucial was the discovery of dominant or recessive genes, a key to modern genetics and the study of dominant and recessive traits, genotype and phenotype, and the concept of heterozygous and homozygous. Sadly, Mendel was so ahead of his time that science did not recognize his contribution until early in the 20th century. Today, he is world-famous-and often resented by students who must do their own experiments based on his work.

Armand David (1826-1900)

Around the same time that Mendel was taking his walks around the monastery, the missionary Lazarist priest, zoologist, and botanist Armand David was at work halfway around the world, in China. A native of Bayonne, France, he entered the Congregation of the Mission in 1848 and was ordained a priest in 1862. Sent to the missions in Beijing, he served with distinction in the community. He found China a remarkable opportunity for exploring the natural sciences. Such were his finds in the areas of zoology, botany, geology, and paleontology that the French government asked him to send specimens of his finds back to Paris for further study. These samples, seen for the first time in the West, aroused such a great interest that Fr. David was commissioned by French scientists to explore China in the search for other new discoveries. Upon his return to France in 1888, he gave a celebrated address in Paris at the International Scientific Congress of Catholics in which he documented his study of more than 60 species of animals and more than 60 species of birds, all of which had been previously unknown. Of particular interest were his "discovery" of the Giant Panda (unknown in Europe) and the Milu Deer, a species of deer subsequently called Père David's Deer (Elaphurus davidianus) in his honor.

Err... wonderful, more copy pasta that just goes to show you miss the point like your friend Observer. No one is denying there were theologian-scientists in the past.

The point is the church did restrict science that it considered heretical or undermined scripture. Listing the things that the church did not have a problem with does not absolve it from imprisoning, ostracizing or murdering people for dabbling in the rest.

And I should add, it is perfectly acceptable for theologians to perform scientific work. Everybody adds what they can and it is all appreciated. As long as it is science, peer reviewed and rigorous!

The problem comes in when the Church as an institution attempts to intrude on the direction and/or funding of other scientists OR attempts to introduce crack pot sciences like Creationism. Then they are no longer being scientists in the spirit of some of the esteemed individuals you mentioned.

Staal-2032263 post 8.8

No one is denying there were theologian-scientists in the past.

From Staal-2032263 post 8.6

I see people love to point out 19th and 20th century theologians that did certain scientific work. The only reason they were in a position that allowed them to do that work was because society forced the Church to stop its crazy nonsense. The Church has only ever evolved and became more tolerant because society told it to. The Chuch is always playing catch up. In the West Religion is a by product of society, society is not a product of religion.

Based on post 8.6 I think any reasonable person would believe you felt that that Catholic Church didn't even allow Catholic Priests and Theologians to perform scientific work until the 19th Century. My 8.7 post was done to refute that point you made in your 8.6 post. It wa the only reason I made post 8.7.

The point is the church did restrict science that it considered heretical or undermined scripture.

Please provide examples where the Church restricted science it considered heretical or undermined scripture.

I would think that by the phrase "the only reason they were in a position to do that" clearly indicates that I infer that they "did science". Christ All Mighty you people only read and see what you want to.

Example? Are you kidding me? If you are in such complete denial then there is no help for you. That or you are a troll.

Staal-2032263 post 8.11

I would think that by the phrase "the only reason they were in a position to do that" clearly indicates that I infer that they "did science". Christ All Mighty you people only read and see what you want to.

Read your prior sentence in post 8.6:

I see people love to point out 19th and 20th century theologians that did certain scientific work.

and then read what you said after "the only reason they were in a position to do that"

was because society forced the Church to stop its crazy nonsense. The Church has only ever evolved and became more tolerant because society told it to. The Chuch is always playing catch up. In the West Religion is a by product of society, society is not a product of religion.

I never implied that you said they (the Catholic Church) never did science, but I think it is clear that you implied in Post 8.6 that the Church didn't contribute to science until after the 19th Century and they only contributed then because society forced them to. I gave a number of examples of where the Church contributed greatly to the advancement of science long before the 19th Century--which directly refutes your point you tried to make in post 8.6.

Finally, all laws are a product of the lawmakers morality. What laws a society creates and enforces contributes greatly to how society behaves in the aggregate. The morality of most lawmakers comes from their Religion--or lack of any Religion. Therefore, society in many ways is a product of Religion (or lack of it) rather than the other way around. That is why the common statement that the West was based on Judeo-Christian culture is so true. Therefore, I contend that your statement:

In the West Religion is a by product of society, society is not a product of religion.

is incorrect.

Example? Are you kidding me? If you are in such complete denial then there is no help for you.

Well then help me and others and just give me one example! I don''t think you can that I can't refute--but I could be wrong.

Shalom: Please provide examples where the Church restricted science it considered heretical or undermined scripture.

Really, Shalom? Are you that stupid, or are you just playing someone stupid on TV...

christ on a biscuit...the examples are staggering and YOU KNOW IT.

Troll Alert!

You sound like all the fools this week, "The End of the World 2012" was today. Oh! wait, we are still here. Rumors with no direction or proof. End of days! my ass! Get off you meth Marco...

Why the Catholic Church and Pope are Important

Read MT 16: 13 - 20. If God is good, wouldn't He make sure that humans can be confident that they can know what human actions He says are morally right and what human actions He says are morally wrong? Jesus founded the Catholic Church by appointing Peter as Her head. Jesus also sent the Holy Spirit to protect Her from teaching error. Jesus told Peter whatever you hold bound on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you hold loose on earth shall be held loose in heaven. When the Church exercises her Magisterial Teaching Authority through official Church documents on Faith and Morals humans can be confident that these are God's pronouncements about what human actions are morally right and what human actions are morally wrong. If you disagree, where does your moral authority come from? Also, as proof, it was also predicted about 2,000 years ago that the Catholic Church would survive until Jesus Second Coming. What other hierarchal human institution has survived that long—and predicted it would be so? Given these two facts, what are the odds that the Catholic Church surviving as it has is just a "coincidence" or the reason it survived is because one set of humans is more successful at "pulling the wool" over the rest of humanity?

The Bible came from the Catholic Church. It really becomes a question of authority. Catholics believe that the Church is the authority on FAith and Morals. (Read 1 Timothy 3:15.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1timothy/1timothy3.htm

Also,

Read MT 16: 13 - 20. If God is good, wouldn't He make sure that humans can be confident that they can know what human actions He says are morally right and what human actions He says are morally wrong? Jesus founded the Catholic Church by appointing Peter as Her head. Jesus also sent the Holy Spirit to protect Her from teaching error. Jesus told Peter whatever you hold bound on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you hold loose on earth shall be held loose in heaven. When the Church exercises her Magisterial Teaching Authority through official Church documents on Faith and Morals humans can be confident that these are God's pronouncements about what human actions are morally right and what human actions are morally wrong. If you disagree, where does your moral authority come from? Also, as proof, it was also predicted about 2,000 years ago that the Catholic Church would survive until Jesus Second Coming. What other hierarchal human institution has survived that long—and predicted it would be so? Given these two facts, what are the odds that the Catholic Church surviving as it has is just a "coincidence" or the reason it survived is because one set of humans is more successful at "pulling the wool" over the rest of humanity?

Danny, you must be a pedophile in denial, why are you insisting soooo much?

Great logic! Anyone who recognizes the blatant crimes of others and points them out, MUST therefore be a criminal guilty of the same crimes himself.

Wow! It appears we have yet another religious nutter with no concept of logic.

Cheers!

Danny-1914275 post 12.2

Wow, shalom is truly a brainwashed supporter of the most foul Pedophile Catholic Cult!

I noticed you didn't dispute a single point in my 12.1 post.

If God is good, wouldn't He make sure that humans can be confident that they can know what human actions He says are morally right and what human actions He says are morally wrong?

Yes he is and yes he did - and that information is in the Bible. The same book that the Catholic Church banned and burned, especially when it was tied around the neck of the people who defied her to read it and were thus burned at the stake.

You are slinging scripture from a cult book! What did you want me to dispute? You could sling sentences from the Lord of the Rings, for all i care.

It is fictional superstition and cultist nonsense. You already know that's what i dispute about it.

Salomenini maybe his b**t still hurts?

OhJoy-2623976 post 12.6

that information is in the Bible. The same book that the Catholic Church banned and burned, especially when it was tied around the neck of the people who defied her to read it and were thus burned at the stake.

It was the Catholic church that determined what book were Divinely Inspired and became part of the Canon of Scripture. The Bible would not exist if it were not for the Catholic Church. And the Catholic Church never demanded that people not read it--please cite an official church pronouncement in the last 2,000 years if feel otherwise.

@Shalom, Jesus most assuredly did not "create the Catholic Church and appoint Peter as its head". OMG, you people are deluded. Christianity was only formed many years after Jesus was dead. The official Church was created after the original cult following of Jesus had spread through the populace and the Byzantium Emperor decided to buy into it in order to gain legitimacy for his rule. It was a political lobby for peasantry in many ways. The only reason why it kept on spreading throughout the rest of Europe over the next 1,000 years was because they systemically slaughtered anyone that didn't convert.

Staal-2032263 post 12.10

Christianity was only formed many years after Jesus was dead.

Who formed, when was formed and please cite your source--and remeber calumny is agrave sin.

The official Church was created after the original cult following of Jesus had spread through the populace and the Byzantium Emperor decided to buy into it in order to gain legitimacy for his rule. It was a political lobby for peasantry in many ways. The only reason why it kept on spreading throughout the rest of Europe over the next 1,000 years was because they systemically slaughtered anyone that didn't convert.

Please cite your source. Almost all reasonable anti-Catholic bigots acknowledge that the early Christian Church in Rome had many martyrs who were brutally tortured and killed under Roman Emperors (what people were fed to the Lions for entertainment? Christians) because of their fear that Christians would obey their Reiigious leaders and not the Emperor until Constantine recognized the Faith.

Cite my source? Just go to any of your churchy websites or just about any other. Jesus had a cult with heavy Jewish influences. Nothing written, no real structure etc. The Roman Catholic Church is altogether different beast that evolved over the following centuries.

"The Church" is a structured organisation with established canon, hardly what was going around in Jesus' time or the years after him. In fact that was the reason for the Council of Nicaea was to root out all the conflicting versions and traditions that had naturally evolved. If they had left it be there probably would've been MANY more faiths. Although I suppose evolution would have had its way with many of them in any case.

The Church only gained its cohesion when it was accepted by the HRE. Constantine accepted it for political reasons, i.e. quell unrest.

Staal-2032263 post 12.12

Cite my source? Just go to any of your churchy websites or just about any other. Jesus had a cult with heavy Jewish influences. Nothing written, no real structure etc. The Roman Catholic Church is altogether different beast that evolved over the following centuries.

None of my churchy websites spport your view. Please provide your websites that support your view--I would be real interested in any Catholic websites that support your view.

Councils have been called throughout the centuries to settle disputes or fights heresies. It is to let people know what the Holy Spirit (a/k/a God) says what human actions are morally good and morally evil as respects Faith and Morals and Religious doctrine. It was a council of Bishops that determined the Canon of Scripture.

None of my churchy websites spport your view.

Wow, you mean they are re-writing history in a pro-jesus, pro-BuyBull manner? Well, how shocking a revelation is that?

i hope gawd can get himn out of he endeavor without compromising the hull of the ship and venting atmosphere, thus killing everyone on board!

but, if it is BuyBull-god, he mass-murders people on a global scale anyway, so he probably doesn't give a siht about that!

Why?

because it has totally screwed-up everything on earth --

--why let it leak its foulness out into space?

Religion didn't foul up the earth idiotic humans are doing it everyday, look in the mirror.

Danny-1914275 post 14.2

because it (Religion) has totally screwed-up everything on earth --

Stalin, Mao, Ghenghis Khan, Hitler, Attila the Hun, Pol Pot, Amin, Hirohito, Lenin all killed more in the name of nationalism than all the Wars over Religion combined. And that is not even including the Romans during the Roman Empire. Please get your facts straight. The Catholic Church has been around for nearly two thousand years. Its goal is to save souls for eternity. It is protected by the Holy Spirit in matters of Faith and Morals. Read Mt: 16: 13 - 20. Its individual members sin, but not its pronouncement on Faith and Morals.

Shalom2U, Hitler was baptised and raised a Catholic. You need to read about the Crusades, Protestant Reformation, Henry the 8th, The Spanish Empire in the New World, Irish History,French Wars of Religion, The Thirty Years War, Taipeng Rebellion, Israeli History, The Inqusitions, The Yugoslav Wars,and about US current troubles in the Mideast! Almost every war ever fought was over religion!

DS. Shalom only reads his cult book (BuyBull) and slings its scriptures here, as if to impress. Please dont ask him to read about REAL history.

Salomenini maybe because it costs thousands of dollars per minute to operate? There are thousands of people on the ground supporting the space station. Shall we stop work on the space station while every religious leader prays to them? What is special about Catholicism rather than, say, Wiccan?

Devil's Son post 14.5

Hitler left the Catholic Church long before he came into power--in fact he persecuted it greatly. If you add all the deaths and suffering of the wars you mention it doesn't even come close to the number of deaths and sufferings humans incurred because of nationalism and the unbridled pursuit of power and money because the person in power has no fear of spending Eternity in hell

What a low-life. You are such a cowardly liar, you cannot even own your cult's history! How sad for you! No wonder things in the Catholic Cult, like all the child rape, STILL continues. Know why? Because you people are too cowardly to OWN your deeds (past and present) and actually change them in the ways they must be changed.

Until you do, you and your cult will continue to be haunted by your hatred and your evil, and it will continue to consume your foul cult as it always has, because you are too cowardly to own it and change it.

Danny-1914275 post 14.9

You are such a cowardly liar,

What specific statement I have made are lies--and please cite your source why I was wrong.

What specific historical deeds are you saying I am afraid to own?

LOL, i was thinking the same thing. I wonder how the endeavor would have established orbit around the catholic's flat earth?

i wonder if the pope has plans for a mars-based vatican office?

Feel free to call me an illiterate religious nitwit, or some hellbound sinner. Your unsupported opinion, not mine.

If God was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt with 100% concrete evidence, who would go against Him? Who would exercise their free will and choose to do evil knowing completely and truthfully what would happen? It's not a test of love and effort if you are completely forced by fear of consequence. Learn to love - learn to trust, and your flawed reasoning will become a little more constructive.

If God was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt with 100% concrete evidence

Then, PROVE IT.

Or simply STFU.

Pretty simple choice.

If given undisputable proof of a god's existence, I highly doubt atheist birthers & deathers would believe it.

If god(s) are so powerful, why don't they just make atheists believe? There is so little evidence people can not even agree how many gods there are except they act like spiteful two year old(s).

Danny-1914275 post 17.3

I

f God was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt with 100% concrete evidence

Then, PROVE IT.

Or simply STFU.

Pretty simple choice.

No God? Then explain how these events happened if it was not for Supernatural or Divine (God) intervention:

1. Padre Pio's ability to read the undisclosed sins of those going to him in the Sacrament of Confession.

2. The stigmata of Padre Pio and St. Francis of Assisi.

3. St. Bernadette being told during an apparition to dig for water in the ground. A spring came out that stands to this day in Lourdes. Unexplained medical cures occurred there shortly after the spring started and some continue on to this day.

4. The miracles that happened after people prayed to those who have died to aid in their cause of canonization and such miracles have been documented by the Vatican.

5. The fact that the Catholic Church has existed in its structure for nearly 2000 years. What other hierarchal institution has? It was also predicted to last and so far has come true: See Mt. 16 :13-20

6. People have been possessed by Demons. The movie the Exorcist was based on true story about a boy in St. Louis. Some power always beats the demon. That power is unquestionably God.

7. Movement of the Sun that was documented by so many at Fatima Portugal in 1917 during a Marian Apparitition. 70,000 saw it. How did this movement of the sun happen?

8. The tilma of Juan Diego has a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe that has been preserved without decay for over 500 years? How?

9. Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta's order is flourishing--yet she never had more than the clothes on her back as her possession. How did she accomplish all that?

10. Mother Angelica, the main founder of the cable channel EWTN, legs were miraculously cured. Her leg braces were no longer needed. One day, she needed $600,000 to pay for her first television transmitter. She had no money. At the time it was going to be repossessed a gentleman read one of her religious tracts she wrote years earlier and asked if he could donate $600,000--the exact amount she needed for the transmitter. She asked if he could wire the money. He did.

This is just scratching the surface of Divine Events in human and salvation history. Any one of these should give pause to the unbeliever. The fact that there are so many means that any one using their intellect would have to come to the conclusion that something supernatural exists to cause these events--nothing else can explain it. If it isn't God causing these events, what is? Until you give me an explanation for each one the belief that there is no God is incredibly dumb. It is also incredibly dumb because this God who is all-knowing and all-powerful loves you beyond all human understanding. He will intercede in your life to get you through the trials of life through prayer, if you desire to live a life based on His rules (called conversion) and you are prepared to suffer for Him just as he did at Calvary for you. No sin is greater than God's mercy.
As for hell, the movie The Exorcist was based on a true story about a boy in St. Louis in 1949. Unexplainable events (from a logical, scientific point of view) happened. What caused those events if it wasn't demonic possession and the Priest, through the power of God, exorcising the demon from the boy's body? You may be a proud atheist, but whether God, the Devil, heaven or Hell actually exist or not has zero dependence on your belief that they don't exist.

Read also about near death experience: Heaven and Hell have both been described by people who have experienced them--the descriptions of both are very similar.

Not every priest is a pedophile moron, and not every man walking outside or your neighbor is a pedophile. Stop the gabage useless argument full of ignorance. If you don't like religion so be it, who cares apart from you? Or every male like yourself is a Pedophile too?

Fooolishness, doh!

Not every priest is a pedophile moron

Agreed. Some are pedophile morons, and some are just pedophiles.

and not every man walking outside or your neighbor is a pedophile

I agree with that, too. Thankfully, i never stated anything to suggest that "every man walking outside, or my neighbor, is a pedophile." What a relief that I never said anything like that, huh?

If you don't like religion so be it, who cares apart from you?

Millions and millions of people who are distressed over the foulness and evil that is spread by ruthless, disgusting cults like the Pedophile Catholic Cult.

Fooolishness, doh!

Yes, your post is full of foolishness. I agree with that, too. But, you posted it, and it's your own fault that your comments were so whacked-out.

Cheers!

God doesn't care what background we're from.

really? what other thoughts of god's do you own and repeat? does he talk to you? what kind of coffee do you two drink together? Can you prove this god-creature exists? Does he presently have a cult-book published here on this planet? Which one does he claim authorship for? Does he have big hands? LOL!

God doesn't care what background we're from.

Really? I keep on hearing that if you rape and murder, but believe in Jesus, you are saved. And, if you are the most charitable person around, but do not believe, you are going to hell. Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims included.

they need all the prayers they can get to come home safely.

Really? can you explain how hand-mumbling brings them home safely, and how increased amounts of hand-mumbling makes it even safer?

Because engineering doesn't alway's work the way that the engineer wants the ship to work.

"I'm givin her all she's got, Captain! I need more time!!" -- Engineer Montgomery Scott

Let's take two groups and have them pilot airplanes. One curses the gods and pilots the plane in for a landing. The other closes his eyes, prays real hard. See what happens. Any volunteers for the second group?

LOL! So true, jim!

You'll never get the republicans to support that level of learning, discovery and exploration.

Frankly, he is from the bowels of the nazi party.

Danny I agree with you and all of your other posts.

He is also probably a child molester like all of the other priests. He also hides the other molester's so they could not be tried and convicted for crimes against humanity.

and if any of the victims come forward, the Pedophile Cult further victimizes them and bullies them until a huge percentage of them back down and run back into hiding.

Application for priesthood:

1) No interest in women: check (must really be focused on Jebus!)

2) No interest in men: check (add your own homophobia here)

3) No interest in children: oops to few applicants, ignore this item.

Atheists angry? Really? Could it be all of the irrationality, deceptions, and out right you-know-what that atheists have to put up with? It is like playing wack-a-mole against a mole shooting Gatling gun.

i accept myself as a product of nature, emptyhanded. (and, of course, my biological parents). and there is nothing beloved about the Pedophile Catholic Cult.

Cheers!

thanks for your very christ-like comments. i'm sure that makes your jesus-myth smile!